Sunday, March 19, 2006
Ishmael & Isaac
I received an interesting comment on my last post.
I responded that my answer was 17.
Here is the next comment which came up:
In all fairness to the person who is commenting on my blog- I really can't answer the second question without doing some serious exegesis. I have never studied Hebrew, although I am assuming that there may be some contextual editing that has happened to the texts either in translation, canonization or writing that has resulted in the anomaly. I don't have adequate access to biblical commentaries at the moment to attempt to research this on my own, but it is an interesting issue, and I'll see if I can find an answer from a professor of Hebrew Bible. If any other readers have suggestions or better HB exegetical skills than me, please feel free to publish your comments by clicking on the "comment" link below.
"Anonymous said...
Dear Carmen
Just read your blog since you mentioned Abraham and Ishmael i would be very interested in your view of the following.
Question - what is the age of ishmael in the passage of the old testament (see below) is he 7 months, 7 years or 17 years old?
This is not a trick question please follow you intellect and not your religious knowledge. It is simply a test of the english language.
Look forward to reply.
Peace be with you.
GENESIS:21:14 - 21
So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-Sheba. When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes. Then she went, and sat down over against him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, “Let me not look upon the death of the child.” And as she sat over against him, the child lifted up his voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.” Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink. And God was with the lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt."
I responded that my answer was 17.
Here is the next comment which came up:
"Anonymous said...
Congratulations your are the first person ever to get Ishmael’s age correct so please read the passage again below this time I have put Ishmael’s age in brackets. As you are aware the description of Ishmael and his age do not fit. He sounds more like 7 months old.
(17 YEAR OLD) carried by his mother, placed in the bushes by his mother, crying like a baby, lifting up the lad? giving him water to drink. At 17 years it should be the other way round. Why is there no verbal communications between mother and (17 YEAR OLD)child????????????????
GENESIS:21:14 - 21
So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the (17 YEAR OLD) child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-Sheba. When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the (17 YEAR OLD)child under one of the bushes. Then she went, and sat down over against him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, “Let me not look upon the death of the (17 YEAR OLD) child.” And as she sat over against him, the (17 YEAR OLD)child lifted up his voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the (17 YEAR OLD)lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the (17 YEAR OLD)lad where he is. Arise, lift up the (17 YEAR OLD) lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.” Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the (17 YEAR OLD) lad a drink. And God was with the (17 YEAR OLD) lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.
Carmen you and I know that age of Ishmael at this stage is crucial to the Abrahamic faiths. If he is 17 or less the Islamic point of view about the Abrahamic covenant is correct. This has devastating theological consequences of unimaginable proportions.
This makes the conflict between Ishmael and Isaac and there descendants a work of fiction. I would strongly suggest it is clear cut case of racial discrimination and nothing to do with god almighty. The scribes have deliberately tried to make Issac the only son and legitimate heir to the throne of Abraham??
Please can you rationally explain this anomaly?
I have asked many persons including my nephews and nieces (unbiased minds with no religious backgrounds but with reasonable command of the English language about this passage and they all agree that the child in the passage is an infant.)"
In all fairness to the person who is commenting on my blog- I really can't answer the second question without doing some serious exegesis. I have never studied Hebrew, although I am assuming that there may be some contextual editing that has happened to the texts either in translation, canonization or writing that has resulted in the anomaly. I don't have adequate access to biblical commentaries at the moment to attempt to research this on my own, but it is an interesting issue, and I'll see if I can find an answer from a professor of Hebrew Bible. If any other readers have suggestions or better HB exegetical skills than me, please feel free to publish your comments by clicking on the "comment" link below.
Comments:
<< Home
Carmen
Thank you for the positive reply.
Unlike you I have no personal contact with any religious scholars.
This issue has been in my mind for many years and am waiting eagerly for any answers from your contacts with Hebrew Scholars.
I am an open minded person and have read a little about Christianity and Islam and their commonalities.
The following passage of the Quran is related to the issue in question, it states that the firstborn son of Abraham was to be sacrificed. The good news of Isaacs’s birth takes place after this event.
So if Ishmael is an infant in Genesis 21 and the teasing of Isaac in the beginning of that chapter could not have occurred. Beginning of Genesis 22 states that Isaac is the "only son" of Abraham? And the same is repeated later in the chapter. The chapter goes onto describe the attempted sacrifice of Isaac. The words "only son" can only be used if Isaac was not born yet?
HOLY QURAN CHAPTER 37 verses 101 - 122
101. So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham!
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was obviously a trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.
114. Again (of old) We bestowed Our favour on Moses and Aaron,
115. And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity;
116. And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles);
117. And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;
118. And We guided them to the Straight Way.
119. And We left (this blessing) for them among generations (to come) in later times:
120. "Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!"
121. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
122. For they were two of our believing Servants.
ISHMAEL IS THE FIRST BORN AND GOOD NEWS OF ISSAC DOES NOT APPEAR UNTIL AFTER THE SACRIFICE?????
Thank you for the positive reply.
Unlike you I have no personal contact with any religious scholars.
This issue has been in my mind for many years and am waiting eagerly for any answers from your contacts with Hebrew Scholars.
I am an open minded person and have read a little about Christianity and Islam and their commonalities.
The following passage of the Quran is related to the issue in question, it states that the firstborn son of Abraham was to be sacrificed. The good news of Isaacs’s birth takes place after this event.
So if Ishmael is an infant in Genesis 21 and the teasing of Isaac in the beginning of that chapter could not have occurred. Beginning of Genesis 22 states that Isaac is the "only son" of Abraham? And the same is repeated later in the chapter. The chapter goes onto describe the attempted sacrifice of Isaac. The words "only son" can only be used if Isaac was not born yet?
HOLY QURAN CHAPTER 37 verses 101 - 122
101. So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham!
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was obviously a trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.
114. Again (of old) We bestowed Our favour on Moses and Aaron,
115. And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity;
116. And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles);
117. And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;
118. And We guided them to the Straight Way.
119. And We left (this blessing) for them among generations (to come) in later times:
120. "Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!"
121. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
122. For they were two of our believing Servants.
ISHMAEL IS THE FIRST BORN AND GOOD NEWS OF ISSAC DOES NOT APPEAR UNTIL AFTER THE SACRIFICE?????
# posted by 
: 5:25 PM
: 5:25 PM
Carmen
your blog does not seem to be registrating that a comment has been submitted, hence resending.
Carmen
Thank you for the positive reply.
Unlike you I have no personal contact with any religious scholars.
This issue has been in my mind for many years and am waiting eagerly for any answers from your contacts with Hebrew Scholars.
I am an open minded person and have read a little about Christianity and Islam and their commonalities.
The following passage of the Quran is related to the issue in question, it states that the firstborn son of Abraham was to be sacrificed. The good news of Isaacs’s birth takes place after this event.
So if Ishmael is an infant in Genesis 21 and the teasing of Isaac in the beginning of that chapter could not have occurred. Beginning of Genesis 22 states that Isaac is the "only son" of Abraham? And the same is repeated later in the chapter. The chapter goes onto describe the attempted sacrifice of Isaac. The words "only son" can only be used if Isaac was not born yet?
HOLY QURAN CHAPTER 37 verses 101 - 122
101. So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham!
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was obviously a trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.
114. Again (of old) We bestowed Our favour on Moses and Aaron,
115. And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity;
116. And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles);
117. And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;
118. And We guided them to the Straight Way.
119. And We left (this blessing) for them among generations (to come) in later times:
120. "Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!"
121. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
122. For they were two of our believing Servants.
ISHMAEL IS THE FIRST BORN AND GOOD NEWS OF ISSAC DOES NOT APPEAR UNTIL AFTER THE SACRIFICE?????
your blog does not seem to be registrating that a comment has been submitted, hence resending.
Carmen
Thank you for the positive reply.
Unlike you I have no personal contact with any religious scholars.
This issue has been in my mind for many years and am waiting eagerly for any answers from your contacts with Hebrew Scholars.
I am an open minded person and have read a little about Christianity and Islam and their commonalities.
The following passage of the Quran is related to the issue in question, it states that the firstborn son of Abraham was to be sacrificed. The good news of Isaacs’s birth takes place after this event.
So if Ishmael is an infant in Genesis 21 and the teasing of Isaac in the beginning of that chapter could not have occurred. Beginning of Genesis 22 states that Isaac is the "only son" of Abraham? And the same is repeated later in the chapter. The chapter goes onto describe the attempted sacrifice of Isaac. The words "only son" can only be used if Isaac was not born yet?
HOLY QURAN CHAPTER 37 verses 101 - 122
101. So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham!
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was obviously a trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.
114. Again (of old) We bestowed Our favour on Moses and Aaron,
115. And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity;
116. And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles);
117. And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;
118. And We guided them to the Straight Way.
119. And We left (this blessing) for them among generations (to come) in later times:
120. "Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!"
121. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
122. For they were two of our believing Servants.
ISHMAEL IS THE FIRST BORN AND GOOD NEWS OF ISSAC DOES NOT APPEAR UNTIL AFTER THE SACRIFICE?????
# posted by : 5:36 PM
: 5:36 PM
Carm
You have a Muslim troll. Cool.
My Bullshit-0-meter started howling when I read this:
"This issue has been in my mind for many years and am waiting eagerly for any answers from your contacts with Hebrew Scholars.
I am an open minded person and have read a little about Christianity and Islam and their commonalities."
Yeah bud. You've 'honestly' been thinking about it for years. Just like you 'honestly' plagarized this piece of Dawa-ganda from the internet.
I love how it starts with "I am an open minded person." Whenever anybody claims that you should duck cause they're about to throw a wicked pile of crap.
This age of Ishmael question is one of those anomolies that the Islamists have been using in their online attacks on the legitimacy of the Jewish claim to Palestine. It's been perfected to the point where the posted just has to copy and paste the question and Quran quotes into the blog comment section.
For me, the anamolies don't matter for much. I just find all the stuff about Abraham to be moralistic legends anyway. I'd be intereted in your opinion.
Hope your bum day got better as it went Carm.
Cheers,
Nate
You have a Muslim troll. Cool.
My Bullshit-0-meter started howling when I read this:
"This issue has been in my mind for many years and am waiting eagerly for any answers from your contacts with Hebrew Scholars.
I am an open minded person and have read a little about Christianity and Islam and their commonalities."
Yeah bud. You've 'honestly' been thinking about it for years. Just like you 'honestly' plagarized this piece of Dawa-ganda from the internet.
I love how it starts with "I am an open minded person." Whenever anybody claims that you should duck cause they're about to throw a wicked pile of crap.
This age of Ishmael question is one of those anomolies that the Islamists have been using in their online attacks on the legitimacy of the Jewish claim to Palestine. It's been perfected to the point where the posted just has to copy and paste the question and Quran quotes into the blog comment section.
For me, the anamolies don't matter for much. I just find all the stuff about Abraham to be moralistic legends anyway. I'd be intereted in your opinion.
Hope your bum day got better as it went Carm.
Cheers,
Nate
# posted by : 1:15 AM
: 1:15 AM
Nate
My legitamate comments/questions obviuosly have troubled you deeply. Only those of a weak personal faith comment in such ways with foul language(looks like the holy ghost has deserted you).
God help us if christ would reply in the same manner like you.
What happened to civilised discourse obviously its missing in your dictionary. Apologies for my poor english/grammar as it is not my mothers tongue.
carmen
looking forward to your researched replies.
My legitamate comments/questions obviuosly have troubled you deeply. Only those of a weak personal faith comment in such ways with foul language(looks like the holy ghost has deserted you).
God help us if christ would reply in the same manner like you.
What happened to civilised discourse obviously its missing in your dictionary. Apologies for my poor english/grammar as it is not my mothers tongue.
carmen
looking forward to your researched replies.
# posted by : 5:56 AM
: 5:56 AM
Nice shame play bud. Obviously I’m not deeply disturbed by anything you wrote. For a couple reasons: 1) I’ve read this before. 2) I take the Abraham stories to be tradition rather than straight factual events. Discrepancies don’t bother me.
Regarding civilized discourse, I might be a foul mouthed heathen but you’ve committed the two Cardinal Sins of my universe (academia)
1)Misrepresentation – You’re not a disinterested observer. Participants are supposed to approach the exchange of ideas honestly.
2)Plagiarism – You ripped your entire argument from other sources without citation. A lot of it is word for word.
As a marker, I’ve already assigned you an F.
If you want some informed answers to your pre-packaged proselytization than let me suggest visiting AnsweringIslam.com. This section on Genesis 21:14 includes the comments of two Hebrew professors.
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen21-14.html
They think the discrepancy is simply poor translation. While I’m naturally sympathetic to the multiple authors/multiple traditions explanation for these scriptural anomalies, the professors make an interesting case.
I congratulate you on finding an obscure Canadian blog to try out your refined Dawah skills. Next time don’t resort to simple cut-and-paste techniques. Be sure to build some personal rapport before launching into your Islamic spiel. Also, be honest about your religious background.
Maybe one day you’ll finally catch your fish. And then you’ll be handsomely rewarded in paradise. Allahu Akbar!
Cheers,
Nate (aka “Abu Jahiliyyah”)
Regarding civilized discourse, I might be a foul mouthed heathen but you’ve committed the two Cardinal Sins of my universe (academia)
1)Misrepresentation – You’re not a disinterested observer. Participants are supposed to approach the exchange of ideas honestly.
2)Plagiarism – You ripped your entire argument from other sources without citation. A lot of it is word for word.
As a marker, I’ve already assigned you an F.
If you want some informed answers to your pre-packaged proselytization than let me suggest visiting AnsweringIslam.com. This section on Genesis 21:14 includes the comments of two Hebrew professors.
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen21-14.html
They think the discrepancy is simply poor translation. While I’m naturally sympathetic to the multiple authors/multiple traditions explanation for these scriptural anomalies, the professors make an interesting case.
I congratulate you on finding an obscure Canadian blog to try out your refined Dawah skills. Next time don’t resort to simple cut-and-paste techniques. Be sure to build some personal rapport before launching into your Islamic spiel. Also, be honest about your religious background.
Maybe one day you’ll finally catch your fish. And then you’ll be handsomely rewarded in paradise. Allahu Akbar!
Cheers,
Nate (aka “Abu Jahiliyyah”)
# posted by : 11:46 AM
: 11:46 AM
Abu Jahl
The Abraham stories might be fantasy for you i wander how many other christians would agree with you? Carmen do you agree that the Abraham stories are just a work of fiction and the discrepancies dont matter?
As for mis-representation and plagiarism i have only quoted passages from the bible mainly genesis 21 & 22 and the quran chapter 37 v101 - 122. The direct sources of the respective faiths.
By the way what planet religion are you i suspect your from zion and therefore a zionist.
zionism = racism.
There is no chosen or master race any more whether you are black green purple african or aborigine we all have equal chance for reaching god that is through are intellect and piety not by claiming to be superior to others.
Your behaviour shows classic signs of the disease called ziondiahriah.
Its main symtom is use abusive language and rubbish all paths to
dialogue therefore stifling freedom of thought and expression.
Post a Comment
The Abraham stories might be fantasy for you i wander how many other christians would agree with you? Carmen do you agree that the Abraham stories are just a work of fiction and the discrepancies dont matter?
As for mis-representation and plagiarism i have only quoted passages from the bible mainly genesis 21 & 22 and the quran chapter 37 v101 - 122. The direct sources of the respective faiths.
By the way what planet religion are you i suspect your from zion and therefore a zionist.
zionism = racism.
There is no chosen or master race any more whether you are black green purple african or aborigine we all have equal chance for reaching god that is through are intellect and piety not by claiming to be superior to others.
Your behaviour shows classic signs of the disease called ziondiahriah.
Its main symtom is use abusive language and rubbish all paths to
dialogue therefore stifling freedom of thought and expression.
# posted by : 2:36 PM
: 2:36 PM << Home
