Saturday, March 25, 2006
Blessed to have wonderful family...
I have to admit - since I started receiving the Anonymous Islamic comments on my blog, I've been a little perplexed as to how to handle the situation. I'm all for inter-religious dialogue, and blessed to be part of a church that is committed to it as well.
However, I'm not schooled enough in Hebrew scriptures to be able to get into an in-depth dialogue with my Islamic sisters and brothers about discrepancies in our Christian texts, let alone differences between the Bible and the Quran. Yikes!
While my Anonymous commentator on this blog may have had me fooled, and may be critical of Nate's responses to his comments, what he has to realize is that Nate is a very intelligent, educated political scientist who's read "EVERYTHING." Especially about these kinds of issues. The fact that he could look at the comments posted on my site and tell me exactly where they were plagiarized from was actually quite impressive. I have to mention here that Nate is my cousin.
Anyways - as promised, I got some response from one of my professors, and as promised I will post it here (response from the Rev. Dr. Ted Siverns, VST):
Anyways - I think it's also worth publishing Nate's most recent comment:
Anyways - Anonymous comments may continue to be posted here, but really, I'm sort of done with this issue and on to the next thing - like finishing my sermon for tomorrow.
Thanks to all who participated in this lively discussion.
C.
However, I'm not schooled enough in Hebrew scriptures to be able to get into an in-depth dialogue with my Islamic sisters and brothers about discrepancies in our Christian texts, let alone differences between the Bible and the Quran. Yikes!
While my Anonymous commentator on this blog may have had me fooled, and may be critical of Nate's responses to his comments, what he has to realize is that Nate is a very intelligent, educated political scientist who's read "EVERYTHING." Especially about these kinds of issues. The fact that he could look at the comments posted on my site and tell me exactly where they were plagiarized from was actually quite impressive. I have to mention here that Nate is my cousin.
Anyways - as promised, I got some response from one of my professors, and as promised I will post it here (response from the Rev. Dr. Ted Siverns, VST):
"Carmen ...I do enjoy these little puzzles. You will know of Genesis 16, J and P as part of the mix. The question is not so much "a part of the English language" but about the Hebrew language. Our translators, like the RSV and NRSV attempt to be as literal as possible and therefore these oddities occur from time to time.
So the age of Ishmael has to be at least 14 and obviously too big to be added to Hagar’s shoulder load.
There are a number of translations that attempt, like the NIV, to interpret what is ambiguous in the Hebrew.
The verse in Hebrew reads “…bread and…water and gave to Hagar placing on her shoulder and the child and sent her out…” “The child” is direct object of, here is the problem, of what? “he took”? “he gave”? “placing”?
The translation could read “Abraham took bread and a skin of water, placing these on her shoulder, and the child and gave them to Hagar.” Still not too helpful you say. Let’s try: Abraham took the bread and water (which was placed on her shoulders) and the child (and these) were given to Hagar.
At least that is the probable and rational meaning. Ted"
Anyways - I think it's also worth publishing Nate's most recent comment:
"Nice shame play bud. Obviously I’m not deeply disturbed by anything you wrote. For a couple reasons: 1) I’ve read this before. 2) I take the Abraham stories to be tradition rather than straight factual events. Discrepancies don’t bother me.
Regarding civilized discourse, I might be a foul mouthed heathen but you’ve committed the two Cardinal Sins of my universe (academia)
1)Misrepresentation – You’re not a disinterested observer. Participants are supposed to approach the exchange of ideas honestly.
2)Plagiarism – You ripped your entire argument from other sources without citation. A lot of it is word for word.
As a marker, I’ve already assigned you an F.
If you want some informed answers to your pre-packaged proselytization than let me suggest visiting AnsweringIslam.com. This section on Genesis 21:14 includes the comments of two Hebrew professors.
http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen21-14.html
They think the discrepancy is simply poor translation. While I’m naturally sympathetic to the multiple authors/multiple traditions explanation for these scriptural anomalies, the professors make an interesting case.
I congratulate you on finding an obscure Canadian blog to try out your refined Dawah skills. Next time don’t resort to simple cut-and-paste techniques. Be sure to build some personal rapport before launching into your Islamic spiel. Also, be honest about your religious background.
Maybe one day you’ll finally catch your fish. And then you’ll be handsomely rewarded in paradise. Allahu Akbar!
Cheers,
Nate (aka “Abu Jahiliyyah”) "
Anyways - Anonymous comments may continue to be posted here, but really, I'm sort of done with this issue and on to the next thing - like finishing my sermon for tomorrow.
Thanks to all who participated in this lively discussion.
C.
Comments:
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Abu Jahl
The Abraham stories might be fantasy for you i wander how many other christians would agree with you? Carmen do you agree that the Abraham stories are just a work of fiction and the discrepancies dont matter?
As for mis-representation and plagiarism i have only quoted passages from the bible mainly genesis 21 & 22 and the quran chapter 37 v101 - 122. The direct sources of the respective faiths.
By the way what planet religion are you i suspect your from zion and therefore a zionist.
zionism = racism.
There is no chosen or master race any more whether you are black green purple african or aborigine we all have equal chance for reaching god that is through are intellect and piety not by claiming to be superior to others.
Your behaviour shows classic signs of the disease called ziondiahriah.
Its main symtom is use abusive language and rubbish all paths to
dialogue therefore stifling freedom of thought and expression.
The Abraham stories might be fantasy for you i wander how many other christians would agree with you? Carmen do you agree that the Abraham stories are just a work of fiction and the discrepancies dont matter?
As for mis-representation and plagiarism i have only quoted passages from the bible mainly genesis 21 & 22 and the quran chapter 37 v101 - 122. The direct sources of the respective faiths.
By the way what planet religion are you i suspect your from zion and therefore a zionist.
zionism = racism.
There is no chosen or master race any more whether you are black green purple african or aborigine we all have equal chance for reaching god that is through are intellect and piety not by claiming to be superior to others.
Your behaviour shows classic signs of the disease called ziondiahriah.
Its main symtom is use abusive language and rubbish all paths to
dialogue therefore stifling freedom of thought and expression.
# posted by 
: 2:42 PM
: 2:42 PM
Carmen
Unlike you i do not belong to a mosque/church, i have never had any religious education/training so no hope of ever learning hebrew or even access to hebrew scholars.
from your latest blog comments i am astonished that with all the technological advances the bible has still not been accurately translated into the english language (over 2000 years to do so). Has it been translated into any other language accurately? Do you agree with Nate comments about the abraham stories?
Unlike you i do not belong to a mosque/church, i have never had any religious education/training so no hope of ever learning hebrew or even access to hebrew scholars.
from your latest blog comments i am astonished that with all the technological advances the bible has still not been accurately translated into the english language (over 2000 years to do so). Has it been translated into any other language accurately? Do you agree with Nate comments about the abraham stories?
# posted by : 2:54 PM
: 2:54 PM
Zounds! He’s figured me out. Anonymous, you truly have a nose for sniffing out Yehudi. I’ve been hiding my Hebrew heritage from my family for 24 years but you’ve figured it out in only a week.
Not that my covers been blown I can talk more freely. Not only am I totally a Jewey Zionist, I work for JewControl Headquarters in Tel Aviv. When we heard that the Ishmael Code had been cracked we set up a secret task force to prevent the knowledge from being spread. Can you imagine the consequences if people found out that Abhraham’s blessing was really given to Ishmael? The consequences would be devastating to our plans! The world would see the Truth that Muhammed (pbuh) was the Messenger of Allah. Conversion would sweep the globe! Israel would cease to exist! Can you imagine?
That’s why we had to fake Ariel Sharon’s stroke. He has taken personal command of the operation designed to confront the cracking of the Ishmael Code. We have thousands of agents monitoring all traffic on the internet. We’ve managed to round up most of the people who know the Truth. Do you think the people in Gitmo are actually terrorists? You don’t know what you’re dealing with here.
[Please note: All the readers who have seen me naked – and considering the family traffic this place gets, I would say there’s a decent number that have – know that I’m *ahem* anatomically non-Jewish. I simply like having fun with the Jew-phobia of paranoid Islamists (which can be a bit like playing with dynamite in some parts of the world.) I just can’t seem to take their requests for honest dialogue seriously.]
Nate
Not that my covers been blown I can talk more freely. Not only am I totally a Jewey Zionist, I work for JewControl Headquarters in Tel Aviv. When we heard that the Ishmael Code had been cracked we set up a secret task force to prevent the knowledge from being spread. Can you imagine the consequences if people found out that Abhraham’s blessing was really given to Ishmael? The consequences would be devastating to our plans! The world would see the Truth that Muhammed (pbuh) was the Messenger of Allah. Conversion would sweep the globe! Israel would cease to exist! Can you imagine?
That’s why we had to fake Ariel Sharon’s stroke. He has taken personal command of the operation designed to confront the cracking of the Ishmael Code. We have thousands of agents monitoring all traffic on the internet. We’ve managed to round up most of the people who know the Truth. Do you think the people in Gitmo are actually terrorists? You don’t know what you’re dealing with here.
[Please note: All the readers who have seen me naked – and considering the family traffic this place gets, I would say there’s a decent number that have – know that I’m *ahem* anatomically non-Jewish. I simply like having fun with the Jew-phobia of paranoid Islamists (which can be a bit like playing with dynamite in some parts of the world.) I just can’t seem to take their requests for honest dialogue seriously.]
Nate
# posted by : 3:34 PM
: 3:34 PM
Carmen
Your hebrew scholar has only addressed one part of genesis 21 WHAT ABOUT THE REST.
Not only was Ishmael being carried, he was physically placed in the bushes by his mother. He was crying like a baby. Mother was lifting up the lad? and giving him water to drink.
Why is there no verbal interaction between mother and child? I.e. If Ishmael is not of talking age then he must be less than a year old.
GENESIS 16:16
And Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. Abram was 86 years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
GENESIS 21:5
Abraham was a 100 years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
By doing some advanced mathematics
100 – 86 = 14 add 2 or 3 years for Isaac’s weaning = 16 or 17 years old.
GENESIS: 21:20
"And God was with the lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow".
HE GREW UP? from 17 odd use of words in any language.
Post a Comment
Your hebrew scholar has only addressed one part of genesis 21 WHAT ABOUT THE REST.
Not only was Ishmael being carried, he was physically placed in the bushes by his mother. He was crying like a baby. Mother was lifting up the lad? and giving him water to drink.
Why is there no verbal interaction between mother and child? I.e. If Ishmael is not of talking age then he must be less than a year old.
GENESIS 16:16
And Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. Abram was 86 years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
GENESIS 21:5
Abraham was a 100 years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
By doing some advanced mathematics
100 – 86 = 14 add 2 or 3 years for Isaac’s weaning = 16 or 17 years old.
GENESIS: 21:20
"And God was with the lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow".
HE GREW UP? from 17 odd use of words in any language.
# posted by : 12:16 PM
: 12:16 PM << Home
